Rehab and behavioral change

[matrixmann]

Let me tell you the core of rehabilitating and getting people to behave differently:
"People, no matter which background you come from, what lies in your past - we now start to behave like normal adults, we respect the each other, we don't harm each other's crazes, unless they start to touch the life of another which didn't ask for it, and we just fucking start to be a society which about everyone of us would desire to live in".
Because, just tell: How much did it previously use to have all kinds of regards for somebody's situation and let him get away with everything on the background of this? How much made it in bargain to do only years-long psychotherapy with everyone, even with those who lack the realization that they need some?
It doesn't change anything at all if it doesn't come with a radical change in what the surroundings of a person are. Most people try to practice what they have learned in psychotherapy, but they remain caught up in the traces of their old lives and their old brain structures. They try over and over again until they succeed for as much as they must, or they give up and surrender to it.
In the past, sometimes it already has proved effective to just give people a strict daily schedule and putting them under surveillance to follow it. If they still thought to act like a slacker, they faced even some more consequences in this frame.
The basic concept of this is easily and exaggeratedly expressed as "change through work" in the words of past days, today one could rather reduce it down to "just giving somebody structure in his daily life" and that's just what it should be. No draconian acts of punishment or exploitation.
For people on the whole, be it criminal or not, you can apply similar thing: Put them into a frame of a structure what their life and their thinking should be like, and it decides over what they act like. As community rules matter more for human behavior, because humans are an animal species that lives in groups, than the individual belief system for most people.
So, be it teaching criminals a better way or wanting to shape a different society: You need to give an outside push into a direction, otherwise behavior structures that already developed dig themselves deeper and deeper into human brain and group culture and worsen in their extent.
In order to achieve a change in behavior, you need to add a CUT to the psychotherapy - to stop with the practice of the old habits. To start something new, to start a corrected version of what had been collectively done wrong before. And this needs to be done regardless of somebody's backgrounds or his ethnic or his spiritual origins. All of society need to be integrated into this, even if it must come by force.
If you lock certain groups of that "new path", you leave yourself vulnerable to practices that had been done before - that it's a society of only a part of all humans and therefore some become able / are forced to generate their own system again besides that of the general society -, as well as that it doesn't drag all people with it, instead remains a closed sect. Which does not help correcting the problem to begin with.
Besides: A new path for all automatically means a path where everyone can grow together with each other.

Comments

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

People need to be thinking about working and saving money more though. I see a lot of people that are very poor talking about going out for Peruvian food, drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, worrying about their pets, etc... I agree with the conservatives about most people. I just disagree with a lot things conservatives talk about when they are just with each other. Also, conservatives think no government is helpful, but bosses always will push exploitation as far as they are allowed to.

People with little money that aren't concerned about working though make me pretty ill. It's dishonest. They are saying that whoever ends up paying for them later deserves to pay the bills for them. Not doing anything is a choice.

[matrixmann]

I didn't mean that with the "change through work" literally.
This is what the concept looked like and was called like in the past century. During these days with overpopulation and capitalism being still in place, sorting people out, it won't be anymore what can teach people discipline 'cause there's not as much jobs as you would need to do this. 'Cause there are too many people out there who would need it - not only criminals, but people which grew into living like a child until they're 25.
Also, if it's about society rules that need a solid definition instead of this chaos you get presented today, that every religious or cultural group gets its way because it's regarded as "oh, we're not allowed to touch this!", forcing people to work doesn't solve that problem.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with this because I believe in realistic human freedom and human freedom, like existentialist say, have to do with encountering the reality we experience day to day and then making choices that have to do with obtaining freedom, as far as one can, in the context of what exists.

What you are saying is like everything should be opposite, so I should do whatever I want. This is what sociopaths think.

[matrixmann]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm not a fan of this "change through work and earning money"-attitude. 'Cause - has it ever really changed the die-hard people that like to harm society? It never has. Instead it also has driven down a lot of people down the road to think "I'm worthless if I don't work" - the puritan way, if you know what I mean.
It's no lie that people don't need a few tasks to fill the free time to not get upon the idea to destroy the supermarkt from boredom or just get drunk all the day, but having something to do and to keep your brain busy isn't just only working on the field or earning money. Money you actually have a lot of ways to earn - also criminal ways. Criminal ways get you the most of money, by the way.

...What is a good start in that department is: Let people think and feel they're needed. Don't tell them all the time they're doing something wrong while you haven't told them in the first place what they actually are supposed to do, and don't come along with that attitude "you're replaceable - do as I say or you can leave!". That's what makes them that fucked up in the first place - to think and get to feel they're not needed, to think and feel it doesn't matter if they exist or not.
And if space opens up, get them to do that tasks that need to be done and reward them. (Not solely financially, also in the social manner. Especially in that manner. Let it be shown "we're content with your work, you can come around again next time".)

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

I think it has made people much better than if it didn't exist and everyone just played all day.

People aren't needed. Needed for what?

I believe in Marxism because it is saying that workers are being exploited because their labor is creating the product that is making the money, but they don't get a fair share of the profit. So, the conclusion is to end the exploitation, you need to overthrow the owners and redistribute the wealth, but it should go to the workers which are people that are working. It shouldn't go to people that are not working. Working is the best thing about people. People suck otherwise.

[matrixmann]

I think the language barrier kills this...

I'll explain it differently: What kind of people do you think contribute to society and their surroundings? Those which can be sure to think that if they drop dead nobody even notices - or those ones which can be sure to have their place in society and if they don't leave the house for a day, somebody's gonna be worried about them and come around and ring in to ask for what's the matter?
The first kind only learns to not care about anything. Destroy, kill, rob a bank - who cares? I don't matter, others don't matter, nothing matters.
When they come around to punish someone like this, it's literally a contradiction towards what they signalize to him the rest of the time. 'Cause punishment carries the subtle message in it that it does matter what the fuck he does.

So, make your way around people thinking and feeling this all their lives. The best thing to do this is letting them know that from practice - and this means giving up the overall institutional attitude "you can be exchanged at any time".

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

You should spend a year watching teenagers in schools. The ones that actually are working on things are a ton better than the ones fucking around bothering people. The ones fucking around end up groping women if you didn't stop them. They also end up bullying and so forth.

[matrixmann]

You mean "those which are interested in learning"? Learning is like working, but it doesn't get you money.
I was always one of those which wanted to learn, acquire more skills.
And if you can't think what that means for you in that position: You gonna get to know the habits of those ones which don't want to climb higher up the ladder. This way or antoher.
Your way then if you digest it in self-hate or in hate towards them. To me, both things are a known thing.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

Teenagers, and children, that don't follow the rules also end up in mobs of them and bother each other in larger and larger groups teaming up to hurt the weaker ones.

The exception is the artist or scientific types that just don't fit in, but that is like one percent. You can't have a society based on thinking that everyone is going to react like the artist or scientist or naturalist or whatever. Society should be about making sure the rude assholes don't abuse, bother, rape, etc... the people that want peace and quiet to work on whatever they want to.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

I think Obama started talking about colonizing Mars though in the kind of spirit of what you are saying though. He is saying people need to have a goal and pull together instead of picking each other a part with weird troll wars online.

It is true that in doing something like colonizing Mars, science and technology would improve a lot and we'd have new inventions and such. Maybe there would be a lot of huge new industries based on the new scientific discoveries that came while humanity was in the process of colonizing Mars.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

I used to believe what you are saying. but I'm glad I don't anymore: you end up with everyone complaining about you and you're sort of like space cadet in some self obsession that doesn't have to do with what other people are doing at all. I think I was becoming obsessed with particular children in the classes I was in too and it was potentially dangerous. It probably is what happens when one of many teachers here end up dating a student and not thinking as if they are an adult and need to put away dreamy things like a future where everyone is playing.

[matrixmann]

Ts, I'm like the devil telling them "you think the world stands still when you disappear? you think that you're that valuable to be cherished for nothing, for just sitting around and being there?
The only thing that you are is unimportant for the course of the world. Not until you acquire yourself such an important position that you can dictate some of the terms and conditions and it's a fatal error of the world ignoring you. That's the only time when you become important for the world! Otherwise your existence is only important for yourself, your parents, your family and everyone else you get into being convinced that your life matters! You're one of more than 7 billion people, what do you think if one of them dies? Barely anybody takes notice. So you will be."
They would rather ban me from a school because I'd talk too much nihilistic stuff that each and everyone finds disturbing and depressing.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

I just mean that like my second year in front of classrooms, I'd trip out about which girls were the most creative or something and I'd focus more and more on what they individually did. It didn't go further than that, thank God. At some point, I got kicked in the balls by the real world and shaped up and stopped tripping out.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

Freedom is responsibility in making choices in the context of an existing world. Otherwise, it is just criminal activity or soon will be.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

My point is that doing anything worthwhile takes a lot of hard work and discipline. You can't learn a language or skill or profession being flighty. There is a good reason why becoming an adult means learning to work hard. Even people that are good artists work hard at it. People that aren't concentrating on what they are doing and what they are working on are the people that go around trying to manipulate others through lying.

[mandarinsun.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Mexican ladies around here have tons of children even though they can't afford the ones they already have too. Poor people always gossiping about romance is pretty disgusting too.

[onb2017.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I have to say again about being defining consciousness. This is fundamental idea of materialism as a philosophy otherwise no mater how hard you argue you end up in idealism as a philosophy and idealistic philosophers will support you. Very few individuals can rise above the environment but not the society as a whole. So to expect that everyone will change without changing the being, t.e the system is not very productive. It never happened in history. Those few who can rise above need to lead other people to change the system, then people's consciousness will change as the being has changed. I know you may argue but this is in many volumes of colossal research that has been proven by time and history There is no practical way to make people behave the way we want them behave anyways. But please let's not fight again if you disagree. Consider it just my opinion.

[matrixmann]

I think once I catched a little glimpse of this myself... It worked for some time in an active way, but in the end it disappeared again from the visible screen.
And, I think, maybe I know a reason: It's because you try to instill change by a viral pattern into a system that is pretty powerful and it still manages to keep people under control en masse with the mindset and consciousness it spreads for its purposes.

I often find, when people talk about "change something on you" in the personal manner, when they act like "oh, you go to psychotherapy and after that you'll be changed!", it's not that simple. Actually, if you want to make a change in somebody's habits or character permanently, you've also had to change something in his surroundings which cuased the behavior before. 'Cause otherwise you only hit that structures again which made you this way in the first place. And even all discipline doesn't change too much on that often enough.
As an example: If you always suffered from being kicked and being maltreated, how much does it bring use up for you if you return to a society which lives of that, which demands that from you in order to be more than the poor class in income matters?
I see in that way that change cannot only be let a matter of someone privately. And actually they know that in psychology - yourself as well as your surroundings shape the way you think and behave.

[onb2017.livejournal.com]

Oh great, so we basically agree on this. I am so happy.